Chevy vs. Ford

[Sandstone VR-4]

Well guys... all the time I spend on this forum has gotten me looking into possibly selling the VR-4 and buying some domestic muscle. I've toyed around with the idea of finding a nice C5, but figure I could probably save myself some $$ and mod a F-body or Mustang to pretty similar performance with the difference in $$ saved.

Since I'm coming from the import market, I don't really have any brand loyalty in the Chevy vs. Ford thing. What I've REALLY been looking at is buying a 94-95 Mustang and dropping in a 351. I've also seen 347 strokers... can someone tell me the advantage of a similarly powered stroker over a 351? I'm only asking because the strokers are roughly $1500 more.

Also... why did Ford not offer a factory 351 to compete with the LT1 and LS1 motors from GM? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially since the Mustang is still under production and the F-bods are not.

Opinions regarding my ideas are welcome. Any insight you guys can shed would be much appreciated.

[brandboZ28]

Ls1.

[jess]

I know about an 02 ls1 for sale. :secret:

[TylerGT]

If your going with a windsor swap then your best angle would be to find a rolling chassis or a car w/ a blown motor for super cheep. This is going to be a lot easier to find in the 79-93 fox body years than a 94-95. 302 based strokers are cool but theres that much more potential starting with a 351(Ive seen windsor strokers up to 427ci). BTW: You cant do a windsor swap before me damnit! ;)

[T]

Whats your price range?

What year mustangs and F-body's do you like?

What is your power goal?

Do you want N/A power? Boosted? Spray?

Do you want a street car? Daily driver? Race car?

[slowLX]

Also... why did Ford not offer a factory 351 to compete with the LT1 and LS1 motors from GM?In my opinion the fact that ford kept the gap close is impressive considering the ci dissadvantage, although there is obviously more "room" for power in the 350's. and the mustang has always been less expensive

i would love to see you rollin' a 351 94-95, it'd be bad ass :headbang:

[Sandstone VR-4]

That's pretty much my intention... I figure I can find a nice 94-95 rolling chassis for pretty cheap, since I've never been a huge fan of the Fox Body.

I've been looking here for ideas regarding the engine:
http://www.fordcobraengines.com/EFI_Engines.htm

I'm leaning towards a 351W over the built 302 because it's only $500 more. I think either of those would be a great starting point on building a monster ride, though. I know that the LS1 block is darn near bulletproof... how does the mustang block hold up? I think I remember hearing that the roller cam block has a tendency to crack if it's abused too badly.

[01COBRA]

That's pretty much my intention... I figure I can find a nice 94-95 rolling chassis for pretty cheap, since I've never been a huge fan of the Fox Body.

I've been looking here for ideas regarding the engine:
http://www.fordcobraengines.com/EFI_Engines.htm

I'm leaning towards a 351W over the built 302 because it's only $500 more. I think either of those would be a great starting point on building a monster ride, though. I know that the LS1 block is darn near bulletproof... how does the mustang block hold up? I think I remember hearing that the roller cam block has a tendency to crack if it's abused too badly.
Get a 351 stroked out to a 392 CI that would be badass.

[Greg Kulbick]

Stock 302 blocks are good to about 500hp, give or take. The internals of any engine are a different story and should be weighed upon heavily.

[Slow ET]

Ford for boost, Chevy for NA, either for nitrous

[Sandstone VR-4]

Whats your price range?


If I sell my car, I know I'll have about $7k cash to play with. While this won't be enough to buy the car AND the motor, it will be enough to cover the one of them.


What year mustangs and F-body's do you like?

SN95 ... never been a fan of the Fox


What is your power goal?

Ultimately, somewhere in the 400-450RWHP range.


Do you want N/A power? Boosted? Spray?

I have a feeling that I will eventually seek out some sort of boost... but it'll have to wait.


Do you want a street car? Daily driver? Race car?

I want something streetable. Not necessarily a daily driver, but friendly enough to do the duty if I needed it to.

[Greg Kulbick]

You could get a SN-95 roller or V6 and then attain the 400rwhp easily with that 7 grand in the motor.

[Gt]

Supercharged 302 = quick and easy 400 rwhp.

If you don't want to make mega hp, a 351 isn't needed. A stock 302 block can handle ~500 rwhp.

The 88 has
a 302 stock short block ($450 rebuild on used shortblock. All stock parts)
TFS TW Heads ported
Edelbrock Performer box stock intake 70mm TB
TFS Stage 1 cam
it dyno'd 500 rwhp. Before the ported heads it made 425 rwhp.

Personally I did the 351 swap, but at the time was very limited because I was staying EFI and at the time not many EFI 351s were running around. I had to do trial and error to get a decent setup. Yet I still ended up running just as fast 2 years later with a 302. There are ssssooo many different directions you can go with a 351 or 302 setup now.

[T]

Im with Tony on this one. If you are looking for 400-450RWHP using boost, the 302 will be enough. And if you look hard for some decent used parts you could put the car together for a little more than you have to spend. I would just get a 94-95 GT and do a rebuild on the bottom end. Add H/C/I, some boost and supporting mods, and the motor will be there. Then you got the tranny, suspension, and rear to figure out. :96s10:

[Bullhead00]

Get a 98 or newer LS1 fbody, do a head and cam swap...BAM, 400-450 horsepower. All the car you'd ever want and easy to work on. Also, there's a lot more options for the LS1's over the newer Stangs. You can pick one up for about as much as you would spend on a Mustang. Not to mention that the fbodys with 6-speeds get like 28 mpg on the highway.

[Greg Kulbick]

Also, there's a lot more options for the LS1's over the newer Stangs.

He's looking at 94-95 stangs, which are 5.0's, way more aftermarket for that.

[Bullhead00]

He's looking at 94-95 stangs, which are 5.0's, way more aftermarket for that.
I always thought that they were all 4.6's when Ford went to that bodystyle. I learn something new everyday! :tu:

[Sandstone VR-4]

All the car you'd ever want and easy to work on. Also, there's a lot more options for the LS1's over the newer Stangs. You can pick one up for about as much as you would spend on a Mustang. Not to mention that the fbodys with 6-speeds get like 28 mpg on the highway.

I have a buddy who owned an '02 SS. It was a blast to drive, but it sure didn't look "easy to work on". From everything I've seen, the Mustang's engine bay is much more "user friendly".

I know that the LS1's have a pretty good advantage over the newer Mustangs, which is why I'm more interested in the pushrod motors than the modular. For what you'd pay for a 98+ F-body, it seems you could buy a 94-95 Mustang and have enough left over for all of your bolt ons plus a few extra goodies.

I don't know. I'm kind of torn. I know the potential of the LS1, but from a cost standpoint it seems that you can get more for less with the Mustang. The interior quality of the Ford also seems to be a bit better than the typical GM fit and finish.

[SloNLo_350]

I'm sure the LS1 would be awesome, but I agree with your statement there. The Mustang will be a good bit cheaper, and 5.0's are like 1st gen Small Block Chevys as far as parts availibility is concerned. Plus Mustangs are lighter, correct? Foxes weigh like 9 lbs (Steve's is 8 but he took the backseat out), and I would get one of those, but since you don't particularly care for them, the 94-95 would be just as good, just a bit heavier. But with 450 whp, who cares about a couple hundred more lbs, it'll still scream.

[SS2win]

I'm a ford guy with plenty of mustangs under my belt. Chevy's are definately easier to work on because they are engineered better. Ford is real damn good about making funky one off parts, nearly inaccesable bolt locations and general weird stuff that will get in your way. Chevy's interchange better and the LS1 is the best engineered domestic V8 bar none. PLUS I have not heard of a FORD with 425rwhp that gets 28mpg on the highway. The main reasons I went with a Camaro are:

1) vehicle seating / fit (I am very uncomfortable in a *newer* mustang)
2) styling (camaros look like they are hauling ass when they are sitting still)
3) Engineering (suspension and drivetrain quality)
4) Economy (who can complain about 22/28??)
5) Tunability (easy and affordable engine management changes via LS1Edit/HPTuners/EFILive)

Chevy won hands down.

[T]

its gonna come down to preference. one isnt better than the other IMO. you can get what you want going either way. do you want to do a project that might take some time, or just a bolt on car? as for working on cars...its not rocket science, lol.

[SS2win]

... as for working on cars...its not rocket science, lol.

I changed the distributor on my 289 and wound up pulling the engine because the retainer clip broke and the oil pump driveshaft fell in the oil pan. Just had to order 7/16x24 banjo bolts for the disc brake conversion on my wife's Galaxy cause Ford never heard that 7/16 fine thread is SUPPOSED to be 20 TPI NOT 24 TPI. I could go on but, I know, I'm just being bitchy. :D

You can get there in either brand and it is a matter of preference.

[slowLX]

I changed the distributor on my 289 and wound up pulling the engine because the retainer clip broke and the oil pump driveshaft fell in the oil pan. Just had to order 7/16x24 banjo bolts for the disc brake conversion on my wife's Galaxy cause Ford never heard that 7/16 fine thread is SUPPOSED to be 20 TPI NOT 24 TPI. I could go on but, I know, I'm just being bitchy. :D

You can get there in either brand and it is a matter of preference.
289???? when did that engine come up. it is nothing like the 302/351 family. also correct me if i'm wrong but i have NEVER heard ANYONE (experts included(ryan, bo..) say that they would rather do heads/cam install on a ls1/lt1 over h/c on a 5.0/351... we are talking modern fords not Model-T's! i've never seen a simpler efi engine bay than a 5.0, ever!

[Gt]

I changed the distributor on my 289 and wound up pulling the engine because the retainer clip broke and the oil pump driveshaft fell in the oil pan. Just had to order 7/16x24 banjo bolts for the disc brake conversion on my wife's Galaxy cause Ford never heard that 7/16 fine thread is SUPPOSED to be 20 TPI NOT 24 TPI. I could go on but, I know, I'm just being bitchy. :D

You can get there in either brand and it is a matter of preference.

You pulled the engine because you drop'd the oil pump shaft? Done that a couple times in different engines over the years. I just fished it out with a magnet.

[SS2win]

289???? when did that engine come up. it is nothing like the 302/351 family....

How can anyone be a ford man and not know what a 289 is? :lol:


You pulled the engine because you drop'd the oil pump shaft? Done that a couple times in different engines over the years. I just fished it out with a magnet.

The only way to put the driveshaft in WITH the retainer clip is to pull the pan. it was much easier to pull the engine in this case... the best thing you can do is get a 4130 driveshaft that is machined from bar stock so it wont physically fit through the hole. the friggin retainer clips are a joke.

[TylerGT]

289???? when did that engine come up. it is nothing like the 302/351 family.

289 is in the windsor family im pretty sure.

[SS2win]

260 was the first in 62ish and the 289 came on the scene in 65. It grew up to the 302 in 69/70 where it remained till they killed it for the bloated mod motor monster.

[Gt]

How can anyone be a ford man and not know what a 289 is? :lol:



The only way to put the driveshaft in WITH the retainer clip is to pull the pan. it was much easier to pull the engine in this case... the best thing you can do is get a 4130 driveshaft that is machined from bar stock so it wont physically fit through the hole. the friggin retainer clips are a joke.
ah, well I didn't worry about the retainer clip. I just remeber when I pull the Dist to be easy with it.

[slowLX]

How can anyone be a ford man and not know what a 289 is? :lol:
i know what it is, but that engine was never mentioned. although i did not think that the 289 was in the winsor family i thought it was older than than.

[slmdLS1]

older than than.


who or what is "than"?

[SS2win]

ah, well I didn't worry about the retainer clip. I just remeber when I pull the Dist to be easy with it.

when faced with pulling a motor I can see why. you THE MAN with the magnet and I'm the man with the retainer clip (and more bruised, arthritic knuckles) :D

[sstony]

i love my car but wish i started with a C5 LS1. if you like forced induction than go with a stang, but i love the C5 with a targa top and i imagine some nice ones are available with the new c6 out. how's the saying go--the vette gets em wet :rice:

[T]

i love my car but wish i started with a C5 LS1. if you like forced induction than go with a stang, but i love the C5 with a targa top and i imagine some nice ones are available with the new c6 out. how's the saying go--the vette gets em wet :rice:


yes, yes, and more yes. reading my mind.

[brandboZ28]

For what you'd pay for a 98+ F-body, it seems you could buy a 94-95 Mustang and have enough left over for all of your bolt ons plus a few extra goodies.

But what would be faster still? A modded 5.0 or a stock LS1. :lol: Im just trying to start shit. :taunt:


289???? when did that engine come up. it is nothing like the 302/351 family. also correct me if i'm wrong but i have NEVER heard ANYONE (experts included(ryan, bo..) say that they would rather do heads/cam install on a ls1/lt1 over h/c on a 5.0/351... we are talking modern fords not Model-T's! i've never seen a simpler efi engine bay than a 5.0, ever!

Ive never done extensive work on a 5.0 so I would much rather go with what I know...the LT1/LS1. Maybe if I had torn open a few 5.0's my opinion would be different though.

[SloNLo_350]

anything that you can swap a cam on without pulling the intake or adjusting valve lash is awesome no matter what.

[madderhatter]

Good starting point for the motor would be finding a wrecked Lightning.

2001 Specs:

Type: Supercharged V8
Displacement: 5410 cc
Horsepower: 380 bhp @ 4750 rpm
Torque: 450 lb-ft @ 3250 rpm
Redline: 5250 rpm

[Kinson Cook, Jr]

260 was the first in 62ish and the 289 came on the scene in 65. It grew up to the 302 in 69/70 where it remained till they killed it for the bloated mod motor monster.
Well atleast someone knows their history with the Winsor.

[RACER1269]

Also... why did Ford not offer a factory 351 to compete with the LT1 and LS1 motors from GM? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially since the Mustang is still under production and the F-bods are not.

Opinions regarding my ideas are welcome. Any insight you guys can shed would be much appreciated.
yeah that is only thing about Ford i dont like they only use enough to get the job done. back in the Five O days there was no comparison Mustangs rule tho i wouldnt do a 94-98 find a v6 99 up if your gonna do a 351. and hey 351 is up my alley. i could tell you the route i took if you go that way. 351 has lots better rod ratio than the 347 althoguh 347 do well. there is my .02 :mrgreen:

[Gt]

What ever you do, don't waste your time by putting a 347 in a stock 302 block if you are going to use a Power Adder also. N/A is fine, but with a P/A you will quickly reach the blocks limit. Also like Scotty mentioned, a 347s rod ratio is pretty bad. A lot of people have been runnin 331s instead.

[slowLX]

who or what is "than"?
don't be a dick. i obviously meant to say "than that". just correct the grammer/spelling mistake if you feel you must.

[thetastelingers]

of course im going to say to get a LS1 car, because mine is for sale.
I wouldn't be selling it if I could afford to keep it..... :cry:

[Sandstone VR-4]

OK guys... I think I've decided what I'm going to do.

I have a few things to fix on my car and I think I'll put it up for sale. My guess is in the next 6 months, or so...

Anyways... I've decided that my next ride will be a Formula hardtop. I've always been more partial to the Firebird than the Camaro, but don't want the hassles of T-Tops (even though they're probably nice on pretty days). I think the lighter weight will also be nice.

I figure that I'd be pretty happy with a bolt on car with some suspension goodies for a while. Ultimately a nice head/cam package would top off the list, and who knows what after that.

Thanks for all the input, guys

[slowLX]

good choice, is that a LS1 formula or an LT1 formula? (did they make both?)

[Sandstone VR-4]

good choice, is that a LS1 formula or an LT1 formula? (did they make both?)

I'm pretty sure they made both, but I'd be going LS1.

[slmdLS1]

gods motor....nice!!!

[sstony]

NICE--i really like the formulas alot also but while looking, try and find a firehawk--rarest of all f-bodies. any prefernce on color?? SOM or NBM are my favorites.

[SloNLo_350]

Medium Blue Metallic is BEAUTIFUL!! But its only in 99, so the LS6 intake and possibility of an LS6 block is probably more important to most people. But I am a little partial to light blue colors anyway :mrgreen:.

[sstony]

But I am a little partial to light blue colors anyway :mrgreen:.
somebody que the homo rainbow or limp wrist smilies :flip2:

[SloNLo_350]

How about somebody que the SHUT THE FUCK UP!! :mrgreen:

You're just pissed cause the truck is so much more bad ass than your weak ass "Cammed SS".

[Bullhead00]

GREAT choice man! I love the Formulas, and a hard top 6-speed with cloth interior would be AWESOME!!

[SS2win]

I came very close to getting a hardtop formula before I found the marro. very cool.

[Bullhead00]

I came very close to getting a hardtop formula before I found the marro. very cool.
You're probably happier with the TT Camaro though :mrgreen:

[SS2win]

You're probably happier with the TT Camaro though :mrgreen:

:D true but I'm more of a camaro guy as well...